The Jim Carroll Band

New York poet Jim Carroll gets the spotlight as the hosts dig into his world of basketball, heroin, and punk poetry. Between debates about song picks, how Jim Carroll got Sean free drinks, and the question of playing sports high, they explore why this Lou Reed-connected artist needs more recognition. From Andy Warhol's Factory to Patti Smith collaborations – discover this junkie-turned-clean inspiration. Earshifter playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0seAeNIlpaMRiDPCuVtWAj?si=def34fe9163e415b

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:20

Okay, welcome to Earshifter. He's Rene Rouleau. And he's Sean Kapstick. And we're here to talk about Jim Carroll, one of my favorites, who influenced me when I was a kid and continues to influence me to this day.

SPEAKER_00: 0:37

Awesome. But can I just say something like right off the top? Okay. I am psyched about this podcast, and I'll tell you why. I listened to not one, not two, but three episodes of Smartless.

UNKNOWN: 0:50

Smartless. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 0:52

And it was awesome. And you're comparing us to SmartList? We are basically SmartList for indie music minus three famous people and funniness. Okay. That's a big thing to keep up with. Okay. Yeah. We'll go for it. Okay. Yeah. I feel like we're really close to SmartList. Like we're basically close to the number of listeners, close to the fame. We're minus a person. That's probably the only difference.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19

Well, if we could get another friend who likes music, then maybe we're onto something. And until

SPEAKER_00: 1:23

then, it's

SPEAKER_03: 1:23

just you and I,

SPEAKER_00: 1:24

nattering on. That's right, exactly. Giving our opinions and introducing people to new music. And also diving deep on bands that maybe people like and want to learn more about. And that's what this podcast is all about.

SPEAKER_03: 1:39

Okay, so let me talk about Jim Carroll a little bit. Why is Jim Carroll important to me? Well, he was there right from the beginning. He was in the factory. He wrote... films and wrote poetry he met jack kerouac and william s burroughs when he was like 15 and hanging out with

SPEAKER_00: 2:00

them so hold up so those are big players in my books like willing mass burroughs i remember reading naked lunch on the subway and i remember i actually like audibly grimaced when i read some expert i can't i can't remember the excerpt exactly but i just remember in the subway by myself reading naked lunch and just going

SPEAKER_02: 2:19

because

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

it was so disgusting and horrifying All of the Jacks. Those are two very reputable names for sure. Going back, so Factory

SPEAKER_03: 2:40

meaning Andy Warhol, I'm assuming. Carol held the microphone to do the bootleg recording that would later be released live at Max's Kansas City. So let's hear that little excerpt of the banter in between. It's a really high-quality bootleg.

SPEAKER_01: 3:20

Oh, yeah, I heard it, but it's pretty new, yeah. Did you get the piano? No. You have to go to the dance test, bro.

SPEAKER_03: 3:35

Okay, so that is the outro to Sweet Jane, which was a new song at that time. And yeah, he's asking for a Pernod drink. So he was there. He was, you know, hanging out at Max's Kansas City. So he was a writer before he was a rock and roller. And he wrote a book called The Basketball Diaries. And, you know, it changed the way that I read books. And he also wrote a number of poetry books

SPEAKER_00: 4:06

how did it change the way that you read books

SPEAKER_03: 4:09

because it was a it was written as a diary it was not a narrative it was didn't have a conventional structure and it was about growing up as a street hustler rent boy in New York City and how he started to use heroin and play basketball in an Ivy League prep school so it was quite an influential book and then his second book forced entries was a about growing up a little bit further when he was ensconced in the scene and when he was dating Hattie Smith and living at the, what's the hotel in New York? Chelsea? The Chelsea

SPEAKER_00: 4:47

Hotel. Which I've had drinks at, which is pretty awesome. But wait, let's go back because, okay, one thing, I did see the movie, Basketball Diaries. I'm not a big reader. I'm more of a movie watcher. And I remember liking the movie. I can't remember who was in it. I hope I'm not stealing your thunder on this. That's one of my comments. flicks oh all right all right all right well do you want to do it now you want to come back to it let's come back to it okay so what i want to say is i remember liking the basketball diaries for homework i tried to find basketball diaries i thought i had the dvd actually and i didn't um and i don't anymore anyway and um so i couldn't find it i really wanted to watch it before this episode but uh no luck it was hard to find it's impossible

SPEAKER_03: 5:32

really yeah lawsuits have um that distribution

SPEAKER_00: 5:37

wow that's

SPEAKER_03: 5:39

so okay so one of my conflicts I'll go plus benefits so Leonard DiCaprio a very young Leonard DiCaprio played Jim Carroll in Basketball Diaries and not in the book it was made up by the director Leonard DiCaprio

SPEAKER_00: 5:57

Leonardo I believe his name is Leonardo

SPEAKER_03: 6:01

Lenny to his friends okay he dreams of wearing a long trench coat walking into school and shooting his classmates I mean whoa and that was before Columbine so the movie was sued by the parents and Jim Carroll actually spent a fair bit of time trying not to talk about it because it wasn't in the basketball diaries and he kept asking about you know are you responsible for all this teen violence now based on your lifestyle so yeah so that's a bit of a conflict

SPEAKER_00: 6:36

yeah yeah do you remember the name of the director i'm just curious no no okay interesting yeah okay that's uh that seems reasonable in terms of him like not wanting to talk about that something that wasn't in his goddamn book and typical freaking directors in hollywood hey god damn them

SPEAKER_03: 6:54

now another movie that i am pleased that he was in was called tough turf and that starred james spader and robert downer jr

SPEAKER_00: 7:02

oh that's

SPEAKER_03: 7:02

a

SPEAKER_00: 7:03

nice combo yeah

SPEAKER_03: 7:04

damn

SPEAKER_00: 7:05

I've never even heard of that movie.

SPEAKER_03: 7:07

It's very dated. Is it good? Did you see it? Only in my memory. I didn't research that movie. I didn't even check to see if that was online, but I was going to try to watch The Basketball Diaries and I couldn't find it. Man, that sucks.

SPEAKER_00: 7:21

Okay, so Tough Turf is, sorry, is it based on a novel of his?

SPEAKER_03: 7:25

No, it's a James Spader, Robert Downey Jr. vehicle. They're in high school and the parts that I remember about the high school dance, because Jim Carroll is the band for for the high school dance. Of course.

SPEAKER_00: 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 7:37

Because he's so punk rock. Because he's so punk rock. That's the school that I wanted to go to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Carol also read an original poem in the middle of a Rancid song that contributed to the album title Here Come the Wolves, right? And if you remember, this is the only, maybe not the only, but this is the good Rancid album with Time Bomb and Rudy Soho. Do you remember when they came out? I'm not a big Rancid fan. Neither am I, but those are good pop punk tunes.

SPEAKER_00: 8:04

Those are really good. good. And Jim Carrey, you were saying, influenced those two songs.

SPEAKER_03: 8:08

He, I guess they were fans as well, and so they sought him out to read a poem in the middle of one of their songs.

SPEAKER_00: 8:19

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 8:20

And recorded it. And recorded it, yeah. It's on the Here Come the Wolves album. I think it's called Junkie Man. Okay. Appropriate name. And, you know, he also released songs with Eddie Vedder, the Basketball Diaries soundtrack, has Eddie Vedder on there. Shout out to my wife, her favorite artist of all time. He was there. He was hanging out with them. He also worked with Sonic Youth, Keith Richards, Richard Hell, Marianne Faithfull. So, you know, he's influenced. He won a award from one of the churches in New York City, one of the multi-denominational churches that he shares with Bill Clinton as promoting interfaith and religion, spirituality And, you know, when he was alive, he could just stand still and be cool.

SPEAKER_00: 9:09

Wow. Yeah. Okay. I don't doubt that. Does that mean that he was religious?

SPEAKER_03: 9:14

He was very religious. He was brought up as a Catholic. The award, if we want to research, it was from the Interfaith Center of New York. It's a nonprofit organization that connects religious leaders in the communities with civil rights. And he won... an award. So hold on. He was a Catholic? He was a Catholic. His first album was called Catholic Boy. I know that, but I thought it was tongue-in-cheek.

SPEAKER_00: 9:44

I

SPEAKER_03: 9:44

thought

SPEAKER_00: 9:44

it was tongue-in-cheek.

SPEAKER_03: 9:46

His spirituality has been strong throughout his entire career, but is questioning of spirituality. Again, influential to me that being spiritual but not having an organized faith, the way he approached Catholicism and quotes all of the sacraments in one of his songs. I learned what extreme unction is, as well as the other sacraments from the song Catholic Boy on the first album, and it maintains that. Wow. And I

SPEAKER_00: 10:17

discuss that. So I'm just trying to, like, genuinely trying to imagine him in the factory as a Catholic. Like, that kind of blows my mind.

SPEAKER_03: 10:27

Well, like, do you remember the Basketball Diary? So it starts out, so he, you know, he is in a Catholic... prep school playing basketball raised by catholic parents and he decides that he's going to try heroin and heroin helps him write his poetry and doesn't interfere with his basketball game but in order to get heroin he has to become a male prostitute and so his mom gets really mad at that and kicks him out you think you know again the the whole you know maybe he's got a little bit mad about Catholicism and so that was a features in his poetry and in the music

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

right so like so many questions Sean so many questions so one I'm sorry did he just jump to heroin do we know this or was there gateway drugs at least going to heroin or do you just go full-on go straight to it do we know we probably don't know

SPEAKER_03: 11:28

so he did experiment with drugs okay and he settled on heroin because it

SPEAKER_00: 11:38

helped him

SPEAKER_03: 11:39

write it helped him write and it gave him when he was nodding as he refers to it it gave him a clarity that allowed him to write so it was complimentary and he's you know he became clean in the early 70s and spent a lot of time talking about it early 70s because yeah so he you know he was a junkie for for probably around you know six years right you know when he was 14 to when he was 20 Jesus and then he ended up going to California and getting clean and meeting his first wife right but this is this is you know after he wrote the basketball diaries at age 16 right that's insane so you know he was a prodigy and then you know in his 20s he was living with Patti Smith and Robert Mapplethorpe so in New York in New York yeah yeah hanging out in that scene

SPEAKER_00: 12:35

and like okay so a couple things so how the fuck do you play basketball on heroin like that's insane to me because heroin is a downer as I understand it and how on earth would you find the energy to play basketball

SPEAKER_03: 12:50

so one of my other favorite bands who happened to be a junkie described it as heroin was a very calming drug and just for the down but also because of the routine so if you are in a routine you feel great you don't get withdrawals and if you're a functioning junkie then it's a maintaining a level so he probably paid basketball and they would have to score right i don't know

SPEAKER_00: 13:24

yes right no no you i think you actually answered the question because there are functioning like weed smokers that smoke in the morning and go through the day and they're fine so i think the same might be applied to heroin. And kids, don't try that at home. No, no, no. Heroin, bad. But I think what you're saying is he built up a tolerance and at that point he's just a functioning junkie that needs his fix in order to just function.

SPEAKER_03: 13:50

But he did get clean to focus on his writing. He said that he wanted to be a serious poet and he couldn't do it in New York. So he moved to California. So the story goes that when he was 28 Patti Smith was touring with her band she came to California and she got in a fight with her opening act and so she said Jim just come out and read poetry and and my band will back you up He appeared on the stage. She introduced him as the guy who taught me how to write poetry. He rapped, ranted his lyrics, and then he got into rock and roll. Huh.

SPEAKER_00: 14:32

That's pretty wild. I mean, we saw Patti Smith, Sean. And wasn't she cool? She is cool. Like, not my number one favorite artist in the world, musically, but mega respect in terms of who she is, the godmother of punk, all that stuff. And she was fun. She was engaging live. And... also let's go back to so robert maplethorpe jim carroll and patty smith lived in the same apartment in new york wow that's pretty crazy too he was there yeah that's pretty cool okay

SPEAKER_03: 15:05

so patty smith rock and roll this is where we get to the ear shifter part

SPEAKER_00: 15:10

okay

SPEAKER_03: 15:11

so I remember how I got introduced to Jim Carroll. Okay. So remember the show Fridays?

SPEAKER_00: 15:23

No,

SPEAKER_03: 15:24

I do not. ABC's answer to Saturday Night Live. It was the exact same show, but on Friday

SPEAKER_00: 15:29

night. No,

SPEAKER_03: 15:31

sounds

SPEAKER_00: 15:31

horrible.

SPEAKER_03: 15:32

It was great. Melanie Chartoff was one of the comedians and the guy who would eventually play Kramer. What's his

SPEAKER_00: 15:39

name in real life? Kelsey Grammer?

SPEAKER_03: 15:40

No, not Kramer. Kramer on Seinfeld. Oh,

SPEAKER_00: 15:45

Kramer on Saturday. I can't remember his name, but yeah. So he was one of these, I think his last name is

SPEAKER_03: 15:49

Richard. He was one of the, uh, the, the comedians and they, they would have a artist much like Saturday Night Live. And I recall Jim Carroll playing and I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. So I probably went out to Vortex Records the next day or that week when I went, did my, my weekly, uh, trip to Vortex to get used records. And I probably bought a Catholic boy. Nice. And so that, started the getting into Jim Carroll so he released you know I don't know three main records three records that were really important to me there was Catholic Boy that came out in 1980 which has been referred to as the last great punk album by a number of people Dry Dreams that came out in 82 that had a little bit softer more poetry and then I Write Your Name in 1984 that really steered into the kind of new wave thing that was happening at that time in the mid-80s. So let's hear off the first album, I Want the Angel, again going back to his Catholic faith.

SPEAKER_01: 17:09

I want So...

SPEAKER_03: 17:25

That's pretty representative of that first album. Lyrically driven. Of course, that's why I like him. And very controversial in terms of some of the lyrics about wanting to be a blind man because all the women would be faceless. They would be like undeveloped film. Wow. So, you know, the Catholic boy, it starts, I was born in a pool they made my mother's And talks then about how he made comrades in heaven. He made allies in hell. So. pretty good to me. It made me, you know, I can, you know, if this was, if I had to have a record that I know all the lyrics to at one point, this would be one of those. Whoa. You know, of the eight songs, they're all bangers, as you say, and I can sing them all in my head as the music's

SPEAKER_00: 18:25

playing. Wow. Okay. So this is where we're gonna kind of disagree because I tried, man. I tried. I do like this song, I Want the Angel. I would never listen to it on my own, like ever. But I just I didn't find it it didn't grab me and so Renee's all about the feels and Sean's all about the lyrics and words which there's irony on top of irony on that because our backgrounds are I studied English and Sean you studied engineering yeah so there is some irony there for sure but I appreciate the lyrics I really do but musically it didn't really it just doesn't doesn't grab

SPEAKER_03: 19:04

me okay so let's hear the next song off Dry Dreams Sweet Jane so when we heard that little introduction on the Velvet Underground that was the outro to Sweet Jane which was a new song at the time offloaded you know arguably I think one of Lou's best songs some people say that it's after John Cale so it's not a good Velvet Underground song I think the feel of Sweet Jane is so beautiful and the number of people that covered it is just wonderful from the cowboy junkies to you know now i can't think of all of the people who know but it's insane it's insane and that's an amazing song so

SPEAKER_00: 19:48

hear the feel on this one all right let's do that but before we do actually i just want to say uh velvet underground love the velvet underground but this sweet chain was not one of my favorite songs either like it really wasn't like heroin ironically because there seems to be a heroin thread in this podcast today um but heroin's one of my favorites of all time. Sweet Jane was fine, but I'd never go out of my way to listen to it. It just didn't really grab me, feels-wise. Rene can hide behind feels all he likes. All right, let's give a listen.

UNKNOWN: 0:20

.........

SPEAKER_03: 20:50

I could just listen to that high falsetto all day

SPEAKER_00: 20:54

long. And I have to say like, I like that he kind of did his own little thing on that song, which I always appreciate. There's nothing worse for me than hearing a cover of a song that sounds exactly like the original. Like, what is the point of that? I'll just listen to the original. Whereas that, at least he gave his own little take on it in terms of the louder vocals, etc. So I did appreciate that in that sense. But still, the song is like, it's okay. People are going to hate me.

SPEAKER_03: 21:24

Well, okay, then maybe I'll get you with the last one. on dry dreams right so this one's Lorraine so again the Lou connection wasn't that far ever the first time that I saw Jim Carroll he was he did primarily spoken word and then the second time I can't remember what band it might have been the lost Dakotas that backed up him and did he did rock and roll

SPEAKER_00: 21:49

hold on

SPEAKER_03: 21:49

you saw

SPEAKER_00: 21:50

Jim Carroll I saw Jim Carroll you saw Jim Carroll yeah that's pretty cool well my voice went up there that's really cool wow where did you remember no

SPEAKER_03: 22:02

i can't it was in a darkened club in toronto toronto somewhere yeah it wasn't one of the lasting ones i was in the basement and he came out and he read poetry and was he um clean at that time do you know yeah yeah this was this was been the 80s so yeah he and how many people were

SPEAKER_00: 22:21

it was

SPEAKER_03: 22:22

it was packed it was yeah yeah the the the basement was packed

SPEAKER_00: 22:26

100

SPEAKER_03: 22:26

people 500 200 a small club and he read poetry and then the year back that I yeah I saw him twice and the year that he came back I didn't see him and I don't know why probably because I was at school or something he read poetry with Lou Reed and that was like at Massey Hall or something so they just both read poetry damn

SPEAKER_00: 22:48

that's very cool

SPEAKER_03: 22:50

that's very cool so this one Lorraine is a song off the first Lou Reed album him Lou Reed Lou Reed and we talked of Lorraine and here's Jim's take on that and Lorraine is speaking with with another uh heroine from Lou Reed's uh songs so

SPEAKER_00: 23:10

before we listen to that just so I'm clear this is a answer to Lou Reed's song Jim Carroll's answer to Lou Reed's song or is it a cover of Lou Reed's song or it is a

SPEAKER_03: 23:21

retelling of the same characters

SPEAKER_01: 23:26

okay all

SPEAKER_03: 23:27

right let's Let's

SPEAKER_01: 23:29

give a listen.

SPEAKER_03: 23:58

So there's Lorraine, who's a wild child, and Sally, who is Sally who can't dance no more. And he's got an angel in that song as well. So those are those records, right? And so those were the early 90s. As part of this, it's funny. Early 90s? Sorry, the early 80s. And there was an article in Penthouse of all magazines. I've heard of it. Yes. And probably it was from 1981. which is probably my biggest year of fascination about penthouse and it talks for their articles for the artists like this penthouse forum maybe yeah and reading you know just mostly the music articles yeah so there you know he's clean and he talks about heroin and how heroin is becoming popular and you know I think this shows how far removed you know I was from that world but I can still enjoy it viscerally right so you know that he was writing reading poetry in the 80s I've got his book and you know it kind of drifted away or at least you know he became less important in terms of new things and then the basketball diaries came out and then he the movie you mean the movie yeah and so there was another interest in in him you know and he was recording with with Eddie Vedder and Pearl Jam as I said PJ Harvey the posies flee they all record his songs as part of of the soundtrack. And then he started releasing spoken word albums. I remember being at the radio station and playing some of these spoken words. And I was like, okay, I really like this spoken words. So that was in, you know, the early 90s. And then by 98, he released an album called Pools of Mercury. And again, a little bit of fame for him. The last song, and this is one who's in Patti Smith's So he released, it was called Eight Fragments for Kurt Cobain. So he's recording a poem about Kurt and Nirvana and his suicide. And it's very poignant. I think, you know, it's not really something to excerpt from, but it is, you know, a ambient background music where he is more than just speaking over the ambient music. The ambient music is reinforcing what he's saying. And it's a little bit of moving piece. about you know the how special a person kurt was

SPEAKER_00: 26:35

hmm interesting so it's like a an homage but something like that and also so i'm probably spoiling this but when when did he die was it the 90s or so he died

SPEAKER_03: 26:50

in 2009 2009

SPEAKER_00: 26:52

okay so he was clean for a long long long time for a

SPEAKER_03: 26:55

long time i

SPEAKER_00: 26:56

also find it interesting that even so he was clean and obviously lou reed Also a junkie for quite some time, as I understand it. I don't know if they were junkies together at the time, but he seems to still kind of gravitate towards, because Kurt Cobain was a junkie as well, towards that, I don't know, for lack of a better term, darker side or the addiction side. Even so, he's not addicted anymore. He's still hanging with people or, you know, honoring people that are of that ilk. So

SPEAKER_03: 27:32

I think it gets back to that spirituality. So... I think he was trying to marry the sacred and the profane. And the, again, don't do it at home, kids. I don't know. I think that a lot of people who were heroin users see that crossing over as part of that drug experience. Right, right, right, right. So he died writing a novel. It's called The Petting Zoo. I saw

SPEAKER_00: 28:08

that on his site

SPEAKER_03: 28:11

and so it's a really it's it's wild ranging but it at its heart is the raven from noah's ark who speaks to an artist about his lack of or losing spirituality and how that compromises him as an artist he died back in new york close to where he grew up was

SPEAKER_00: 28:44

he still in a relationship with patty Smith or new? Long gone. Long

SPEAKER_03: 28:48

gone. He married a woman who was an entertainment lawyer who eventually became his manager. They divorced amicably. He had another marriage and then, no, he died alone.

SPEAKER_00: 29:02

No kids.

SPEAKER_03: 29:03

No kids. No

SPEAKER_00: 29:04

kids. I got kind of a hard question here. So based on your own observations and your own experience with Jim Carroll, do you feel he was a better writer when he was on Heroine versus when he was off Heroine?

SPEAKER_03: 29:16

So I'd have to say Off, because those songs that he recorded were all, you know, after he got clean. The Basketball Diaries was, you know, when he was in the midst of heroin and forced entries. I gave my copy of Basketball Diaries away. I don't know where it is right now. They're not in print. So I couldn't find that to reread it. I have my book of nods that was a poetry book that was after he got clean. And so did he have his greatest influence? You always have your greatest influence when you're younger.

SPEAKER_02: 29:57

I think

SPEAKER_00: 29:57

that's a great comment, actually, because we all in our youth, teenagers up to maybe 25, we're all kind of exploring and we're at our most visceral, for lack of a better term. We haven't been, you know, kind of, we're not full adults yet and we're still trying to figure out the world a bit like Holden Caulfield was, right? And so I think that's a fair answer. But the other, I have another very important question for you. And that is, why the hell did you not put my favorite and almost only song that I really like of his, People Who Died? Why the hell is that in on your list. Is that not expected from me that I just want to be different and difficult? Like, irreverent and just super cool because I'm not going to play his popular song? Is that what's going on?

SPEAKER_03: 30:45

Why don't you play These Are People Who Died?

SPEAKER_00: 30:47

We're going to play it. We're going to play it for Renee. That's what we're going to do. I

SPEAKER_01: 30:53

miss you more than all the others and I salute you, brother. Lots of people die, die. Lots of people

SPEAKER_02: 31:05

We'll be right back.

SPEAKER_03: 31:19

okay so that's people who died and it is a great song and it is like a lot of artists part of their recycling of names thoughts emotions so All of those people are real people. They were his friends. They are people in basketball diaries who died. They are his friends who, you know, he's celebrating. So some people say it's a morbid song. Some people say it's, you know, something that doesn't celebrate life. But I think it's very much about celebrating life. And even in his book, The Petting Zoo, you know, you could see those same people those same characters that are still in New York City. He never left New York City. And we're part of... that existence that he grew up in and lived in and died in

SPEAKER_00: 32:20

it's kind of crazy because if you listen to the song there's a quite a few people in his life that have died and i imagine some of them are from heroin overdoses i imagine some are other things who knows or do we

SPEAKER_03: 32:35

know bobby got leukemia 14 years old there you go 65 when he died so we do a friend of jim's

SPEAKER_00: 32:41

so we do know yes i haven't listened to the song as much as you obviously but So he actually does go through how they all died. It's kind of crazy. Wow, that's nuts. Okay, so you talked about spoken word, which I find fascinating. Like, I can't imagine you on the... Guys, he used to be a radio DJ at his university, University of Waterloo, shout out, in Ontario, near Toronto. And I can't imagine you playing spoken word on this college radio, which I think is just radical and crazy. Good on you. Do you have a favorite piece of his work or poem or something?

SPEAKER_03: 33:21

So, yes. The poem that comes to mind, it's a simpler one. It's a haiku more, but not in the form of a haiku, I guess. And one of the reasons that it's my favorite is, so I was in New York City. It was after 9-11. They were promoting, it was Canada Loves New York. It was to promote tourism in New York. And so I went down with my family and my brother-in-law and I went out for a you know we said okay we're going out for a drink so we walk by Max's Kansas City it's still there and I'm like Max's Kansas City let's go in so I get to the door there's a cover charge and the woman took pity on us didn't get us to pay the 20 bucks 50 bucks and said it's not what you want don't come here keep it in your brain so i'm like thank you so then we walk to hell's kitchen and go to this you know darkened bar it's pretty empty we walk in and then the matron of the bar because again new york didn't have any tourists we were in a non-touristy area she comes over and she says what are you doing here and i'm like i came from canada to support new york out for a drink why she goes anybody who comes in here has to recite a poem and so i recite sure i got a syringe i use it to baste my tiny turkey which is one of jim carroll's poems on a book of nods and i recited like that and she looked at me and then she left me alone and then the bouncer came over and he goes what did you say to her normally she kicks people out of the bar she doesn't know them so jim carroll got me out of a that's pretty cool got me free drinks in new york free oh you got free drinks oh after after her going away away and not kicking us out and hassling us, the bartender just said, here, have a beer. Wow. Okay. That's pretty good. So yeah, Jim's important. New York.

UNKNOWN: 35:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 35:27

So when we were at Patti Smith, she came out and read a poem. You knew the book before she came out and said anything. Right. Was that The Howl?

SPEAKER_00: 35:39

Yes. Allen Ginsberg. Yeah, it's the only poetry book I ever owned. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 35:44

So why do you not

SPEAKER_00: 35:45

like

SPEAKER_03: 35:46

lyrics

SPEAKER_00: 35:48

it's not that I don't like lyrics I do I do like lyrics I just don't pay attention to them as much as you do or and many others not just you I'm not picking on you Sean I love you buddy but I think it's like I pay attention to the feeling first and the lyrics might come after I mean with the clash I can't quote lyrics from the clash necessarily but I know what they stood for I know what each song kind of meant I'm so bored with the USA etc etc but I can't quote the lyrics like verbatim but I know the feeling I know what they meant to say but I I'm just not as good at like remembering lyrics like you are and as for Allen Ginsberg it goes right back to the beginning of this podcast dude where we talked about Jack Kerouac and that's how I got into Allen Ginsberg and the Doors and Ken Casey and all those guys by the way this one kind of feels like there's a bit of a drug theme going on so what drugs have you done i don't know to be honest

SPEAKER_03: 36:49

zero well i got paranoid in your basement and then we stopped uh smoking dope that's right that was it yeah that's all the drugs i've done okay so have i convinced

SPEAKER_00: 37:02

you is he an air shifter band is he an air shifter band okay i would say that in the greater scheme of things given his influence and given uh who he's been with and hung out with and who obviously they respected him too i would have to give it to you that jim carroll band is an ear shifter band they're just not my ear shifter band but i think they are an ear shifter band

SPEAKER_03: 37:28

yes

SPEAKER_00: 37:29

okay

SPEAKER_03: 37:29

well i agree he was very important to me yes and so on his first album he sings a song is it nothing is true no it's too late nothing is true it has the line lines of until they perfect the techniques to clone y'all better remember you're all alone but on it's too late to fall in love with Sharon Tate but it's too soon to ask me for the words I want carved on my tomb that was one of the songs on Friday so he's buried in St. Peter's Cemetery in Havershaw Rockland County New York just up the Hudson River from Manhattan where he grew up and And maybe someday I'll find out what's written on his gravestone. So until then, I still have his records. And I would say, to quote the Catholic boy, put your tongue to the rail whenever you can. Don't put your tongue to the rail. Put your tongue to the rail whenever you can. Oh, put your tongue to the rail whenever you can. Interesting. Redeemed through pain, not through joy. Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 38:43

Wow. So... Do you think you will go to New York and visit his tombstone? If I had endless time? You

SPEAKER_03: 38:50

might, at some point. To find out what's written there. Drag your wife there? I think she'd stay in the city. Maybe if I ride my motorcycle to New York, I'd come down the Hudson River and can do that. That'd be pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00: 39:05

Okay, so let's get to the Spotify results. Every year, Spotify does their thing. I want to talk a little bit about this year I think I can't remember my number of hours listening but I know I'm in the top two percent worldwide in terms of Spotify listeners which is awesome but here's the embarrassing part my top five songs are all and sorry Brian Eno and Harold Budd you guys are awesome obviously because I listen to you so much but those are my top five songs all five are not songs they're ambient music by Harold Budd and Brian Eno so kind of a weird flex in if you will. Uh, humble brag, top 2%, awesome. Top five songs, maybe not as great.

SPEAKER_03: 39:53

Again, his hate on

SPEAKER_00: 39:54

lyrics. I don't hate lyrics. I don't. Your favorite songs are ambient. Yeah, all my favorite songs are ambient. It's kind of effed up. So, that's me, Sean, in a nutshell. Kind of a weird flex and a humble brag. What do you got?

SPEAKER_03: 40:08

So, I am definitely not in the, I think I'm in the top quartile of Spotify listeners. Uh, Because I don't get control of the Spotify in my house. I am in the top percentages of a few of the bands that we saw this summer. And my rap, I think, is so biased. I'm a little bit against the thing because I binge listened that Boy Genius album. And that is all of my favorite songs. Supposedly, that's the only thing I listen to, which I know I listen to. more but a great album though but that's bullshit and for a little bit of time in the early summer the the late spring early summer that's what i was just listening to so yeah what it is to give you spotify gives you what it is or what it's not but it's supposed to to i heard that it stops in october so

SPEAKER_00: 41:04

it's really your whole year you're the tracking yeah the tracking the tracking stops in october so it doesn't tell you it

SPEAKER_03: 41:10

doesn't say what i'm listening to now

SPEAKER_00: 41:12

yeah fair enough fair enough uh that boy genius right record or album I'm pretty sure it's in Pitchfork's top 50 albums of the year I would agree I would agree too shout out to Pitchfork okay cool so then let's talk about what we've been listening to lately Honest Talk you know besides my obvious ambient music I've been listening to actually I've been listening to I just put together a Led Zeppelin playlist I don't know what oh I know I watched a document a rockumentary if you will on Led Zeppelin it's probably my third one I've watched and it just kind of inspired me to put together a little Led Zeppelin playlist. And the Led Zeppelin playlist name is Get the Lead Out, which I think is a pretty good name. And Tom Waits, oddly enough, Tom Waits, kind of rediscovered Tom Waits. That's probably me in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_03: 42:03

So I've been listening to the songs that I am going to go see in rock shows. That seems to be my listening thing. So I just came back from a Wilco festival. So In

SPEAKER_00: 42:15

Mexico.

SPEAKER_03: 42:16

And so I listened to a lot of Wilco and it did kind of renew my faith in Wilco. I'm glad they love me. You're glad they love you?

SPEAKER_00: 42:25

Yes. Okay. And they've told you that? Yeah. Oh, that's nice. Oh, like you thought it was directed to you specifically when he goes, we love you. Exactly. Oh, that's a good way to take it. I'm going to do that from now on too. Anything else besides Wilco? What were the other bands there? Wakahatchee.

SPEAKER_03: 42:44

Oh, yeah. Nice. Which was totally cool. And then her partner, Kevin Morby, was there. Oh, did he play? Yeah. Oh,

SPEAKER_00: 42:52

crap. How

SPEAKER_03: 42:52

was he? Not as good as Wakahatchee. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, he didn't have that same darkened mood. It's hard to be dark in Mexico when it's a beautiful, nice night. Sunny day? Kevin Morby by day? Is that what you heard? He was the opener. It was 7 o'clock. The sun was down, but it was still pretty much beach. Did he play Sundowner? I don't know. He played this photograph. He played a lot of his songs. He did the duet with Wakachi. It was nice. But you know who was a standout artist to that? Lucinda Williams. Huh. So Lucinda's had a stroke, had a whole bunch of health issues. She came out. She almost gave up. her handler had to come back and refocus her to, to actually focus on the music and, and, uh, play. And then she rocked it and she released a, she still got a new album out and she played songs off her new album, which again, going back to Lou Reed, cause we always go back to Lou Reed, uh, is a rip off of rock and roll heart. She just basically readjusted the lyrics to a rock and roll heart, which was great. And then she played her hits. and it was wonderful.

SPEAKER_00: 44:08

So are you a fan of Lucinda Williams? Oh, I love Lucinda. Oh, I am embarrassed to say I've never listened to her. So I'm going to give her a listen after this podcast or at least before the next podcast. That's my homework. I'm kind of into it. Maybe she'll come up on one of these shows. Oh, I see. Maybe I don't have to listen to her then. I can just wait for that show. Okay, cool. I think that about wraps it up. Sean, what do you think? So what

SPEAKER_03: 44:32

are we going to hear next time?

SPEAKER_00: 44:34

Oh, next time I'm going to bring a band from Modesto, California.